I wonder how much is learned behavior from her older sister?

4 years old is too young to label a child ODD. The reason is because there are so many reasons she could be behaving that way - its not necessarily psychiatric. What you want to do is help her, not label her. You might want to try a good psychologist. They can give you parenting tips on how to manage the negative behavior. There are many books on this subject. I am reading one right now about boys only, but parts of it could certainly apply to girls, its called “The Way of Boys” by Anthony Rao, but there are so many great ones, I’m sure someone can point you in the right direction.
Some other reasons for bad behavior are lack of enough sleep. Too much sugar/junk food. Emotional dynamics within the family. Not enough structure. Not getting enough positive attention (so they get it negatively). Even health problems can cause behavior like this - my 4 year old could easily have been labeled ODD, but I found out we had a big health problem that contributed to him feeling “yucky” and “tired” which increased his hyperactivity.
So I’m just saying, don’t jump to the psychiatrist, and the meds, and the labels, at age 4.  There is a wealth of help out there for you.

I just also want to add that some of the biggest powerhouses, CEOs, etc. were nightmares to raise, because they have such a strong will! Is she intelligent, creative? Perhaps try nurturing her strengths and giving her lots of compliments to focus her in the right direction!

Some of this problem may very well be neurological, but some may be learned behavior.

You must take charge. Even if she cannot help some of the over-reactions, she must have consequences because the real world will definitely punish her for these behaviors.

You are doing some good things, but you need to be tougher. I know it’s hard to do this, but if she has a meltdown at the grocery store, for example, I’d take the carriage up to the check out, ask them to watch it and then take her outside, put her in the back seat, sit in the driver”Ēs seat, and IGNORE HER until she calms down.

Holding her is a REWARD, so it’s best not to hold her after a huge tantrum. Be very manner-of-fact: “I’m glad you’ve calmed down. Are you ready to finish shopping with me?”” The supermarket is very stimulating so if you could shop at night without her, that would help.

Also, when you go into the supermarket, have her pick out a treat she likes and tell her she can have it if there is NO screaming and she “listens”—that is, does what she’s told.

Try tough love and see what happens, but be consistent. No rewards after meltdowns. Holding should be saved for when she has a GOOD 1/2 hour or hour. A hug, short holding, telling her what a quiet, nice time it has been, etc. REWARD positive behavior, not negative.

A behavior specialist (psychologist or social worker) can help you with both girls. Meanwhile, good luck!

Patricia H. Aust: CT Task Force on ADHD; author of HYPER HARRY for kids 8-12 (available at Amazon .com (paper) and the Kindle Store.

I didn’t suspect my son having ADHD until I noticed a few months later after his 4th birthday but all along he was progressing with his Defiant behavior. A light bulb when off in my head and said I bet he has ADHD, after that moment I researched what it was than I made an appointment with a Pyschologist had had him tested and at 4 1/2 he was diagnosied with ADHD and Anxiety not ODD because he’s great one one with adults. We tried behavioral therapy, counseling for the family, all kinds of help so we can try more postive consequences, etc.  It helped alot but not enough, really helps to have a strick routine. As of 18 days ago we finally needed to get medication help because he’s not doing great in his kindergarten class (unable to sit still, can’t focus long enought to do his work, won’t do what the teachers say, never completes required work, has trouble with his attitude and always interupting the teachers and never stops playing to learn). I also suspect he has ODD. Teachers can’t really evaulate my son’s progress because he hardly particpates in anything or never finishes work, he’s very defiant… That is why I had to see if medicine would work and guess what, he’s doing great! He focuses, his meltdowns are less (may I mention he has a sister that is 18 months younger than him w/o adhd). He and his sister have a typical sibling relationship. 

If your wondering, my son started medicine at 5 years old and 7 months before turning 6… He is considered a case that really needs it to be able to be successful in school otherwise they are thinking of keeping him back a year.

As for your younger daughter. If older sister has it I would suspect she does too if has reports from school and you also witness behavior problems. I would start now.. Go get her tested, than start behavoril therapy after than when you decide she’s ready for Kindergarten start the process of getting extra help (IEP & 405). It’s better if you suspect now to start moving forward on this instead of waiting because honestly it’s a long and exausting road,

If your wondering what medicine we have my 5 yo 8 month son on it’s Concerta 18 mg. It’s a pill he swallows every morning and it’s in the system and out daily. I’ve only noticed a few side effects (reduced appetite only during the day & goes to bed later) my son does get hungry at night so he still eats plenty but not during lunch time.

I hope some of my history has helped you as obviously you have insight because your other daughter has ADHD.

Before I started any therapy for my son I got on anxiety pills and depression pills, I’m now off (only needed them for 6 months). I’m happy I helped me too so I can be a better mom.

Good luck EAM

Thank you everyone!  This morning, Kate was as pleasant and friendly and easy going as could be. She didn’t argue and was like a dream child. This is why I am so confused. She is sometimes a maniac and sometimes an angel. She is reminding me of her older sis who we always say is either THE BEST or THE WORST but there is no middle ground.

First, you are not alone!  Our youngest daughter has had these kinds of tantrums since she was about 3.5 years old.  We just thought that the terrible twos had never left!  We tried several different ways to modify her behaviour, but only had partial results.  It would work for awhile and then the tantrums would come back just as bad, if not worse.  We were feeling like horrible parents and our older daughter was also being affected and developed a mild anxiety problem.

What saved us was when we finally got into a youth mental health organization where we live. We had a worker come into our home to help us work with our daughter.  We now use Collaborative Problem Solving (CPS) as our parenting technique (well…. most of the time anyways, we DO make mistakes)  There is a book you can read called “The Explosive Child” by Dr Ross Greene.  It describes Collaborative Problem Solving with lots of examples.  The author has 2 sons with ADHD.  It’s a really simple concept, but may take a while to learn the skills required to implement it.  There are 2 websites that have videos and lots of other information about CPS as well:  livesinthebalance.org     and   thinkkids.org. 

It has taken a year for us, but the tantrums from my 8 year old are down to once every week or two now and our lives are much calmer.  She is better able to verbalize what is frustrating her, although still frequently is too overwhelmed with her emotions to do this on a regular basis.  It’s definitely a work in progress! 

A benefit of learning this parenting approach is that you can use it for children who DON’T have ADHD as well.  It also models for the kids a way for them to solve problems in later life.